The Constitution provides the 5th amendment a protection against self incrimination. This does suggest that these people are protecting there job, or hiding some illegality but we can not force them to incriminate themselves. However, if Congress or the Justice Department can prove illegality a court should determine if they are guilty this is the basis of our Country.
Submitted by Patrick Hallahan (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 10:12am
The 1st amendment is protected by the 2nd amendment. Sometimes we don't like it but the oath we swore to when we went in the service is still valid even thought we are not
on active duty.
Submitted by Roy Faria (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 4:56pm
The Constitution provides 5th amendment protection to citizens- people. Not "persons". "Persons" includes corporations, government agencies, etc. As Pres. Obama has so often lamented, a government entity is not within the definition of either people or "person", because, in his words, "The Constitution is a document of negative liberties". This is because it grants specific rights to the people, not the government. Therefore, the fifth amendment does not apply to the VA or any other corporation.
Every corporation is made up of its people. The people who answer to and speak for the corporation, and would testify on its behalf in court can't also benefit from the function of the corporation, and at the same time also enjoy the position of being the corporation.
It is a shame that some people argue and defend the Constitutional rights that suit them, and oppose the ones that they don't like. You can't have it both ways.
Submitted by JAF (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 12:23pm
The Constitution that we protect and defend provides this as a right. Personally, I think that if ANY public servant takes the fifth then they KNEW they were doing wrong. A deeper investigation into the individuals taking the fifth is called for. Better yet fire them first. It is my personal opinion formed from personal experience, that the VA (as an organization) is actively attempting to kill as many veterans as it can either through neglect, apathy or improper medical care.
Submitted by drb (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 2:17pm
Excuse me, but it sounds like you're confusing people as a citizen, and people as public servants. While I agree they get 5th amendment protection, we're not speaking of either citizens or public servants.
This investigation is into the VA, and by law, the VA, as a public entity, is not entitled to constitutional rights. Even Pres. Obama has repeatedly insisted that this is true. He used it often in his campaign. He doesn't like the constitution. He often said, "The constitution is a document of negative rights", which means that the constitution does not extend its rights to corporations, unions and government entities.
It is certainly their right but this just shows how corrupt and mismanaged this total VA administration has become over the years. It would be much better just to provide full disclosure and get immunity so we can get this mess cleaned up. Bob McDonald has not fired anyone yet and that would be a good start. Maybe he needs to hire Donald Trump for a few days just to show him how the real world really works outside of Washington DC.
Submitted by John Finn (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 2:31pm
These pinheads have to be able to be fired instead of being protected by government unions! The are paid with our tax dollars, yet are untouchable when they do wrong.
I think as civil servants they should be put in a non-pay status until they decide to talk. Their rights are not violated but they have NO right to be employed by the government.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 2:48pm
You would not tolerate a private employer having the right to strong-arm and coerce you out of your constitutional rights. Yet you advocate allowing government, which currently is at best on probation with most of us as to honesty and clear purpose to abuse our hard won rights and protections like this? Sorry, but I think many people who take the time to think this out will not take that position. We must never compromise on rights that the same veterans we want to protect spilled blood to earn and hang on to for us. We are not required to help anybody, government or private sector with our own prosecution in this country. Better hope we never are.
Submitted by W. Brown (not verified) : Nov 6, 2015 3:42pm
You would not tolerate a private employer having the right to strong-arm and coerce you out of your constitutional rights. Yet you advocate allowing government, which currently is at best on probation with most of us as to honesty and clear purpose to abuse our hard won rights and protections like this? Sorry, but I think many people who take the time to think this out will not take that position. We must never compromise on rights that the same veterans we want to protect spilled blood to earn and hang on to for us. We are not required to help anybody, government or private sector with our own prosecution in this country. Better hope we never are.
Submitted by W. Brown (not verified) : Nov 6, 2015 3:49pm
Disagree. When poor performers on the police force fail to act in good faith they are put on leave without pay. There is no difference here except maybe these civil servants have taken advantage of their position for their own gain.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) : Nov 13, 2015 6:30pm
This is typical in this country, wrong doer's get to slide out from under the crap
they've created. Once and for all hang everyone of them starting with the white
house. We need to return our original form of government not this garbage that's
being slowly but surely fed to us. Let's get OUR country back on the right track.
Submitted by MICHAEL SAWYER (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 2:51pm
Bob is no better than the people who are still in management from previous administrations. Bob knew those officials were asked to appear before congress. Bob should have fired them when they did not show up. Now maybe Bob needs to be fired. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution to the problem.
They should all be fired for insubordination and dereliction of duty. Military personnel and ex military should be given the highest level of respect and care at the VA. Pleading the fifth does not fix the problems surrounding the Va. All Veterans must be given the option of going to whatever healthcare provider the wish and not be channeled into a healthcare system that has failed andb cannot be fixed.
Submitted by Sgt James P Barr (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 2:55pm
If these government workers have to plead the 5th to cover up how they were doing their job then they should be put on unpaid leave until the truth comes out. Then they should either be fired, jailed or reinstated if innocent. The VA and government in general is out of control with no accountability to the tax payers or veterans and expanding far, far beyond it's constitutional limits.
Submitted by Ed Phelps (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 2:57pm
I thought all forms and definitions for the term "accountability" were abolished in the US just prior to the FDR administration. Guess I'm just 'old school'.
Submitted by Lat Jr. (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 3:05pm
I agree with the majority of comments. They would not invoke the 5th unless they knew they were doing wrong. They are just covering their behinds to keep from getting fired. They need to be placed on non pay status waiting for the congressional panel to determine if they are guilty, and then fired for fraudulent actions against the very Veteran's they were supposed to be helping.
Submitted by dean (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 3:37pm
I understand that they are entitled to invoke their 5th Amendment Rights, like anyone is, however Congress has the right to grant them immunity. However I believe they serve at the whim and pleasure of the congress. Can them and replace them with VETERENS who will tell the truth. One from every Branch.
Submitted by Thomas R. Paul (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 3:38pm
For a VA official to "take the 5th" in this matter is disgusting, BUT, should he/she be a Veteran, that makes it doubling disgusting. They should have thought about "self-incrimination" and the penalties for their corrupt actions before they started doing them. Their length of service with the VA should not grant them automatic immunity. How else can we clean-up this mess?
Submitted by JHK-Korea (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 4:13pm
Tar and feathers when claiming the 5th. That is how the 5th should be amended. I don't think that to be too cruel and unusual. Certainly make them think twice. Yep, branding their foreheads with "5th" would be going too far I guess. None of the above is prohibited by their contract is it?
Submitted by Mario G. Ortega, Sr. (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 5:04pm
There should be a special investigator appointed and their work and positions evaluated for malfeasance. Certainly is suspect that they chose not to reply to questions.
Submitted by Frosty Fred (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 5:07pm
Sure you don't have to incriminate yourself, but if you do not cooperate with an investigation into your job performance you should lose your job and benefits and maybe go to jail. It seems pretty simple to me. This works in the private sector.
Submitted by Robert Baker (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 5:41pm
It is their constitutional right, however they should be fired for failing to cooperate with an investigation. If they are like most federal employees they are heavily protected by the unions and can't be fired. Look at the IRS. It is a broken system, be tough to fix.
Submitted by Nam 68,69,70 usmc (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 5:41pm
While it is true that the US Constitution and it's amendments provide protection from self-incrimination (among other things), there is nothing that says they can't be removed from their job for failing to comply with a Congressional Subpoena. The only time it is necessary to plead the Fifth Amendment protection is when self-incrimination is a possibility.
I agree that it is up to the IGs office and Congress to perform the necessary investigations and then either empanel a Grand Jury or have the US Attorney file an Information in Federal Court.
Instead of a checks and balances system we have corrupted the government by allowing the courts to be the final arbiter of both validity and compliance of the laws of the land.
Submitted by Paul Curtis (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 7:02pm
If a person invokes his/her 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination, it is a de facto admission of guilt; that person should be fired and investigated criminally.
Submitted by SFC (Ret.) Ed Miller (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 7:15pm
I know it's their right to plead that but I think they are trying to cover their a**. In my humble opinion I feel they should be fired immediately and also lose their benefits and retirement and the other perks they get. I'm really tired of the way some of these people use others and the system.
Submitted by WillyT (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 7:37pm
If they complied with the summons then invoked the 5th then they have complied with the law. The solution is to elect a president that considers the actions by the VA officials involved to be illegal; a special prosecutor would then be hired to investigate these illegal actions. I'm sure all invoking the 5th would be included in the investigation.
Submitted by bob green (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 7:47pm
VA officials have been a heartless disgraceful bunch for many, many years! Just like the presidents and politicians that continue to force or allow them to be so. Stating they are a disgrace just doesn't give any justice to the ruthless cowards that they are!
Submitted by Patriot2theBone (not verified) : Nov 5, 2015 11:22pm
It's insulting to veterans and taxpayers alike. The larger issue is changing the accountability culture in VA. But to say this is their constitutional rights is to add insult to injury. The US Constitution enumerates rights to people, and people, in this case, is not "persons". The legal definition of "persons" includes corporations and government entities, and as Pres. Obama has so often lamented, a government entity is not within the definition of either people or "person", because, in his words, "The Constitution is a document of negative liberties". This is because it grants specific rights to the people, not the government. Therefore, the fifth amendment does not apply to the VA.
The VA, as in every corporation, amounts to its people. The people who answer and speak for the corporation, and would testify on its behalf in court. They can't also benefit from the function of the corporation and also enjoy the position of being the corporation.
I don't know when the unions were allowed to represent government employees, but I know it is relatively recent. After spending a carreer in the telephone company as a union represented craftman and then getting promoted to management, I saw and worked bothe sides of the line, (management and non-management). In the private industries unions were challenged and defeated when making absurd and rediculous demands, such as tenure, expensive unresonable procedures for dismisals and discipling unacceptible behavior, etc. They were becomming an obstacle to job growth,driving some companies to do business elsewhere, thus driving their numbers down. Now that they established themselves in government workforce, they have struck a goldmine, unlimited taxpayer dollars , without having to worry about any profitabily for the companies they deal with. Couple that with the fact that government management are a bunch of wimps who are afraid to confront bad behavior, using the excuse that they have a contract with the union, you end up with the mess we are in now. No one challenging these absurd demands and the unions having a field day slapping these so-called managers, and raping the American taxpayer.
Submitted by sergio noble (not verified) : Nov 6, 2015 3:20pm
Its ironic they invoke their constitutional rights, the same rights veterans fought to defend. The same veterans that these incompetent and criminal "employees" have ignored, killed and worsened the conditions of veterans in need. They need to come clean or be fired, criminally investigated, imprisoned and fined. When they go to jail, they should be denied any health care whatsoever or make them wait for a few years for an appointment.
Submitted by Paul Beseler (not verified) : Nov 7, 2015 9:37am
Comments
The Constitution provides the
The Constitution provides the 5th amendment a protection against self incrimination. This does suggest that these people are protecting there job, or hiding some illegality but we can not force them to incriminate themselves. However, if Congress or the Justice Department can prove illegality a court should determine if they are guilty this is the basis of our Country.
Fine if thy won't cooperate
Fine if thy won't cooperate with the investigation just fire them immediately. They are evidently hiding something.
The 1st amendment is
The 1st amendment is protected by the 2nd amendment. Sometimes we don't like it but the oath we swore to when we went in the service is still valid even thought we are not
on active duty.
Whoops , I meant the 1st 7
Whoops , I meant the 1st 7 5th amendment.
The Constitution provides 5th
The Constitution provides 5th amendment protection to citizens- people. Not "persons". "Persons" includes corporations, government agencies, etc. As Pres. Obama has so often lamented, a government entity is not within the definition of either people or "person", because, in his words, "The Constitution is a document of negative liberties". This is because it grants specific rights to the people, not the government. Therefore, the fifth amendment does not apply to the VA or any other corporation.
Every corporation is made up of its people. The people who answer to and speak for the corporation, and would testify on its behalf in court can't also benefit from the function of the corporation, and at the same time also enjoy the position of being the corporation.
I would think a few could be
I would think a few could be given immunity they would have to testify.
Try them with jury of their
Try them with jury of their peers.
It is a shame that some
It is a shame that some people argue and defend the Constitutional rights that suit them, and oppose the ones that they don't like. You can't have it both ways.
The Constitution that we
The Constitution that we protect and defend provides this as a right. Personally, I think that if ANY public servant takes the fifth then they KNEW they were doing wrong. A deeper investigation into the individuals taking the fifth is called for. Better yet fire them first. It is my personal opinion formed from personal experience, that the VA (as an organization) is actively attempting to kill as many veterans as it can either through neglect, apathy or improper medical care.
Excuse me, but it sounds like
Excuse me, but it sounds like you're confusing people as a citizen, and people as public servants. While I agree they get 5th amendment protection, we're not speaking of either citizens or public servants.
This investigation is into the VA, and by law, the VA, as a public entity, is not entitled to constitutional rights. Even Pres. Obama has repeatedly insisted that this is true. He used it often in his campaign. He doesn't like the constitution. He often said, "The constitution is a document of negative rights", which means that the constitution does not extend its rights to corporations, unions and government entities.
It is certainly their right
It is certainly their right but this just shows how corrupt and mismanaged this total VA administration has become over the years. It would be much better just to provide full disclosure and get immunity so we can get this mess cleaned up. Bob McDonald has not fired anyone yet and that would be a good start. Maybe he needs to hire Donald Trump for a few days just to show him how the real world really works outside of Washington DC.
These pinheads have to be
These pinheads have to be able to be fired instead of being protected by government unions! The are paid with our tax dollars, yet are untouchable when they do wrong.
You are spot on!!
You are spot on!!
I think as civil servants
I think as civil servants they should be put in a non-pay status until they decide to talk. Their rights are not violated but they have NO right to be employed by the government.
You would not tolerate a
You would not tolerate a private employer having the right to strong-arm and coerce you out of your constitutional rights. Yet you advocate allowing government, which currently is at best on probation with most of us as to honesty and clear purpose to abuse our hard won rights and protections like this? Sorry, but I think many people who take the time to think this out will not take that position. We must never compromise on rights that the same veterans we want to protect spilled blood to earn and hang on to for us. We are not required to help anybody, government or private sector with our own prosecution in this country. Better hope we never are.
You would not tolerate a
You would not tolerate a private employer having the right to strong-arm and coerce you out of your constitutional rights. Yet you advocate allowing government, which currently is at best on probation with most of us as to honesty and clear purpose to abuse our hard won rights and protections like this? Sorry, but I think many people who take the time to think this out will not take that position. We must never compromise on rights that the same veterans we want to protect spilled blood to earn and hang on to for us. We are not required to help anybody, government or private sector with our own prosecution in this country. Better hope we never are.
Disagree. When poor
Disagree. When poor performers on the police force fail to act in good faith they are put on leave without pay. There is no difference here except maybe these civil servants have taken advantage of their position for their own gain.
This is typical in this
This is typical in this country, wrong doer's get to slide out from under the crap
they've created. Once and for all hang everyone of them starting with the white
house. We need to return our original form of government not this garbage that's
being slowly but surely fed to us. Let's get OUR country back on the right track.
This is typical public
This is typical public servants serving the public. We need to clean up this whole country.
Bob is no better than the
Bob is no better than the people who are still in management from previous administrations. Bob knew those officials were asked to appear before congress. Bob should have fired them when they did not show up. Now maybe Bob needs to be fired. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution to the problem.
They should all be fired for
They should all be fired for insubordination and dereliction of duty. Military personnel and ex military should be given the highest level of respect and care at the VA. Pleading the fifth does not fix the problems surrounding the Va. All Veterans must be given the option of going to whatever healthcare provider the wish and not be channeled into a healthcare system that has failed andb cannot be fixed.
Sgt Barr......Very well said.
Sgt Barr......Very well said.
If these government workers
If these government workers have to plead the 5th to cover up how they were doing their job then they should be put on unpaid leave until the truth comes out. Then they should either be fired, jailed or reinstated if innocent. The VA and government in general is out of control with no accountability to the tax payers or veterans and expanding far, far beyond it's constitutional limits.
I thought all forms and
I thought all forms and definitions for the term "accountability" were abolished in the US just prior to the FDR administration. Guess I'm just 'old school'.
I agree with the majority of
I agree with the majority of comments. They would not invoke the 5th unless they knew they were doing wrong. They are just covering their behinds to keep from getting fired. They need to be placed on non pay status waiting for the congressional panel to determine if they are guilty, and then fired for fraudulent actions against the very Veteran's they were supposed to be helping.
I understand that they are
I understand that they are entitled to invoke their 5th Amendment Rights, like anyone is, however Congress has the right to grant them immunity. However I believe they serve at the whim and pleasure of the congress. Can them and replace them with VETERENS who will tell the truth. One from every Branch.
For a VA official to "take
For a VA official to "take the 5th" in this matter is disgusting, BUT, should he/she be a Veteran, that makes it doubling disgusting. They should have thought about "self-incrimination" and the penalties for their corrupt actions before they started doing them. Their length of service with the VA should not grant them automatic immunity. How else can we clean-up this mess?
Tar and feathers when
Tar and feathers when claiming the 5th. That is how the 5th should be amended. I don't think that to be too cruel and unusual. Certainly make them think twice. Yep, branding their foreheads with "5th" would be going too far I guess. None of the above is prohibited by their contract is it?
There should be a special
There should be a special investigator appointed and their work and positions evaluated for malfeasance. Certainly is suspect that they chose not to reply to questions.
Sure you don't have to
Sure you don't have to incriminate yourself, but if you do not cooperate with an investigation into your job performance you should lose your job and benefits and maybe go to jail. It seems pretty simple to me. This works in the private sector.
It is their constitutional
It is their constitutional right, however they should be fired for failing to cooperate with an investigation. If they are like most federal employees they are heavily protected by the unions and can't be fired. Look at the IRS. It is a broken system, be tough to fix.
While it is true that the US
While it is true that the US Constitution and it's amendments provide protection from self-incrimination (among other things), there is nothing that says they can't be removed from their job for failing to comply with a Congressional Subpoena. The only time it is necessary to plead the Fifth Amendment protection is when self-incrimination is a possibility.
I agree that it is up to the IGs office and Congress to perform the necessary investigations and then either empanel a Grand Jury or have the US Attorney file an Information in Federal Court.
Instead of a checks and balances system we have corrupted the government by allowing the courts to be the final arbiter of both validity and compliance of the laws of the land.
I think the va is just for
I think the va is just for the ceos to make money in ther pockets thay need to start over and start firing big brass, thay sure are not for the vets.
If a person invokes his/her
If a person invokes his/her 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination, it is a de facto admission of guilt; that person should be fired and investigated criminally.
I know it's their right to
I know it's their right to plead that but I think they are trying to cover their a**. In my humble opinion I feel they should be fired immediately and also lose their benefits and retirement and the other perks they get. I'm really tired of the way some of these people use others and the system.
If they complied with the
If they complied with the summons then invoked the 5th then they have complied with the law. The solution is to elect a president that considers the actions by the VA officials involved to be illegal; a special prosecutor would then be hired to investigate these illegal actions. I'm sure all invoking the 5th would be included in the investigation.
Get new officials !!!
Get new officials !!!
VA officials have been a
VA officials have been a heartless disgraceful bunch for many, many years! Just like the presidents and politicians that continue to force or allow them to be so. Stating they are a disgrace just doesn't give any justice to the ruthless cowards that they are!
It's insulting to veterans
It's insulting to veterans and taxpayers alike. The larger issue is changing the accountability culture in VA. But to say this is their constitutional rights is to add insult to injury. The US Constitution enumerates rights to people, and people, in this case, is not "persons". The legal definition of "persons" includes corporations and government entities, and as Pres. Obama has so often lamented, a government entity is not within the definition of either people or "person", because, in his words, "The Constitution is a document of negative liberties". This is because it grants specific rights to the people, not the government. Therefore, the fifth amendment does not apply to the VA.
The VA, as in every corporation, amounts to its people. The people who answer and speak for the corporation, and would testify on its behalf in court. They can't also benefit from the function of the corporation and also enjoy the position of being the corporation.
You can not "plead the fifth"
You can not "plead the fifth" when your boss asks you about doing your job.
put them in prison when plead
put them in prison when plead the fifth equal guilty as charge
Classic CYA maneuver.
Classic CYA maneuver.
I don't know when the unions
I don't know when the unions were allowed to represent government employees, but I know it is relatively recent. After spending a carreer in the telephone company as a union represented craftman and then getting promoted to management, I saw and worked bothe sides of the line, (management and non-management). In the private industries unions were challenged and defeated when making absurd and rediculous demands, such as tenure, expensive unresonable procedures for dismisals and discipling unacceptible behavior, etc. They were becomming an obstacle to job growth,driving some companies to do business elsewhere, thus driving their numbers down. Now that they established themselves in government workforce, they have struck a goldmine, unlimited taxpayer dollars , without having to worry about any profitabily for the companies they deal with. Couple that with the fact that government management are a bunch of wimps who are afraid to confront bad behavior, using the excuse that they have a contract with the union, you end up with the mess we are in now. No one challenging these absurd demands and the unions having a field day slapping these so-called managers, and raping the American taxpayer.
Its ironic they invoke their
Its ironic they invoke their constitutional rights, the same rights veterans fought to defend. The same veterans that these incompetent and criminal "employees" have ignored, killed and worsened the conditions of veterans in need. They need to come clean or be fired, criminally investigated, imprisoned and fined. When they go to jail, they should be denied any health care whatsoever or make them wait for a few years for an appointment.